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Wolvinator
Old Wyrm
Old Wyrm


Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 450
Location: 1407 Grayskull Lane, New Haven District, Rhy'Din City

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kairee wrote:

How do you know? (You is being used generically even though this post is responding to Wolvinator's post)

No one knows what's in the character background, in detail, of a character they did not create.


To be honest, it’s just bad form, and complete B.S. at that point. It’s not feasible, that’s called “making stuff up”. I know we’re all sitting her playing a game, making things up as we go along. But what I cited there was what a bad player would do in that situation. That… is what makes you a bad player. You can’t just waltzed into RDI and be a Super Sayajin Mutant Wizard Star Trek Commanding Dark Lord of the Jedi Marine Sniper Ex Convict Military Experiment Street Fighting Bazooka Toting Half Dwarf, Half Elf, Half Lizard, ¾ Vulcan, 2/3 Human Race car driver.

It just doesn’t work.

And for the record, I was poking fun at some of my own character’s in there, if you care to notice.

Kairee wrote:


I have played Kairee for 20 years. She's dated star ship captains, street samurai, Vampire Elder (Brujah.. and yes, the player worked for White Wolf and contributed to VtM..and he was playing the founder of that Clan), mages of all sorts and so on. She's collected artefacts and items and technology over the years.


People, not you in general Kairee, keep bringing up length of time played. I like to think of this as “Wisdom does not come with age.” sort of thing. If people have been roleplaying for “X” amount of years, and they are still making the same mistakes… that length of time means nothing.

Then again, people can just walk in and claim their characters have been doing “adventures” for fifty years, and just pull any bunny out of a hat. That doesn’t make it right.

Kairee wrote:


What about the high tech character here on this world ? Can they not pick up magical items in the marketplace or find them that allow telportation or protection from Vamps? How do you know they don't have such things?


Foreshadowing, Character Development, Profiles… that’s how. Use the tools available to you to help other people play along with your character’s history. My character is of a technological origin, by that I mean Wolvinator. I build story… leave clues, character build up, plots. Anyone could come in and see where he is currently at, and how he’s growing. I do that to assist the reader, and those that wish to play along. People feel like they know more about your character OOC and it helps them to interact IC.
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Wolvinator
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Panther
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Joined: 04 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolvinator wrote:

Kairee wrote:

If it relates to a story on the message boards, a link to the board/folder should be provided so those interested can read the story. The SL folder or post should specify if he SL is open to all or not and the rules of engagement.

if the playable is not linked to a message board SL post, then it's just there as information.

"Mysterious explosion rocks marketplace!" read full account .....<insert link>


I actually fully agree here. This is a practice that I have taken into account on the playables that I have posted, and it would be nice to have everyone do the same. The problem is, people won’t. It’s free-form, and you do it as you see fit.


Actually.. no... the forums are not "free-form". What we do is Free Form Role-Play.

I've tried to gently steer the use of the playables in the direction they were intended, and based on feedback I get the way most want them to be used.

If I decide to get heavy handed in how they are used... I can...

I'm not talking about editing content, folks are still welcome to post what they want (within the limits of general guidelines of course) in their own folders. The Playables folder is, at it's core, a service we have set up to help facilitate interaction between players. Just like any tool we offer, it's up to 'me' to oversee the use of it.

I suppose if anything, some of the blame for some of the issues is mine for not maintaining consistent oversight/moderation of their use. That's a problem when we all are doing this as a hobby... real life demands and all that.

But rather than just keep coming down heavy handed on things like this, I'm also hopeful that I can continue to see how things are used (or as some would say mis-used) in order to figure out what else we can potentially offer to meet the needs/wants.
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Kairee
Old Wyrm
Old Wyrm


Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 565
Location: Wherever she wants to be

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, what you are saying that if you don't know about something, it doesn't exist and if introduced into play, it's "bad player"-ish cheating.

If you missed the time in the inn when Kairee was given bonbons and an snack food emergency occurred, she can't offer up her bonbons for the cause since you have no record of her ever receiving bonbons.

"Tsk! There's no public record of her getting bonbons! She's cheating! Those Bonbons cannot be used in this snack emergency!"

So, all the character development people do, without your input and without sharing it publicly, cannot be used in any form of play on this site, whether it be in the live chat of in a story because it was not specifically listed or mentioned anywhere that you are aware of, it's cheating.

I'll keep that in mind but I will play as I play. Kai has stuff you don't know about, has seen and witnessed things you don't know about, and will use it whenever she pleases.

This goes for all my characters.

I disagree with you entirely on this but if that’s how you and your friends want to play, that’s your choice. I don’t and I won’t play that way. If I wanted to, I would play an RPG with a hard *** GM that insists everything be written down on the character sheet and if you forgot to write something down, too bad, you don’t have it anymore.

For the record, I mentioned how long Kai's been around to demonstrate that her character development has been going on for decades and there is no way anyone currently in the forum would know what Kai owns or doesn't own or has access too.

She purposefully doesn't discuss her abilities in any detail because she doesn't believe in giving her enemies clues as to any gaps in abilities or weaknesses she may have. She also doesn't want them to know what to defend against. She likes trying to keep the odds in her favor.
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Wolvinator
Old Wyrm
Old Wyrm


Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 450
Location: 1407 Grayskull Lane, New Haven District, Rhy'Din City

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kairee wrote:

So, what you are saying that if you don't know about something, it doesn't exist and if introduced into play, it's "bad player"-ish cheating.


In a manner of speaking, yep. Plain and simple. It’s frustrating when people can pull out anything they want, at any time, without any form of repercussions. People that do things like that, do not give their character boundaries. It comes again to the one-upmanship thing I brought forth earlier.

"Anything you can do I can do better, I can do anything better then you. No you can’t, yes I can, no you can’t, yes I can."

That’s what this is becoming here. Making stuff up off the fly to make your character have an unseen advantage is cheating.

Kairee wrote:

If you missed the time in the inn when Kairee was given bonbons and an snack food emergency occurred, she can't offer up her bonbons for the cause since you have no record of her ever receiving bonbons.

"Tsk! There's no public record of her getting bonbons! She's cheating! Those Bonbons cannot be used in this snack emergency!"


This, is nitpicking. If you want you could boil it down to… “Why does your character wear that shirt? You never said where he got it from.”

Kairee wrote:

So, all the character development people do, without your input and without sharing it publicly, cannot be used in any form of play on this site, whether it be in the live chat of in a story because it was not specifically listed or mentioned anywhere that you are aware of, it's cheating.


I didn’t say that. But what I am saying is that if you want to include other people in Storylines, you need to give the players joining your storyline a form of a back story for them to go off of. Otherwise… it’s a rabbit pulled out of a hat when anyone see’s fit. You need logical boundaries. “It can’t be anything goes whenever I want it to be.”

Kairee wrote:

She purposefully doesn't discuss her abilities in any detail because she doesn't believe in giving her enemies clues as to any gaps in abilities or weaknesses she may have.


Neither do my characters, or any characters that I know. What character openly talks to people about what can hurt them, what can kill them, what scares them and makes them cry unless they have a teddy bear? That doesn’t happen IC.

OOC is completely different however. Many people in the forums have OOC-Only profiles. This gives incite into the character in depth, deeper then the profile system that is accompanied with your account. Those profiles DO have things like weaknesses, fears, strengths, powers. But again, those are for OOC knowledge only. People put these profiles out there to assist other players in “playing along” with them.

People that read these and then use them IC, without the character divulging the information… those are bad RPers. It happens, and it happens often. The player that it affects normally will quickly point out that the opposing character has no way of coming into that knowledge in an IC fashion.

This… again can be split off into yet another thread, which I believe has been done. “I can read your mind so I know your weaknesses” kind of poor gameplay.

Again… this is what I refer to as “one-upmanship”
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Wolvinator
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Kairee
Old Wyrm
Old Wyrm


Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 565
Location: Wherever she wants to be

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can't pick and choose what is important to divulge and what's not important to divulge.

Bonbons or weapons......the point is that you cannot know what another character has in terms of abilities or inventory or history.

It's presumptuous to think you do or that you should.

It's insulting that you think someone is cheating because they have or do something you think they should not have or be able to do and where you have received no advance justification and warning that they have it or can do it.

All I can say at this point is….

No Bonbons for you.
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-Kairee
The Splendiferous One and Mage-Babe Supreme

"With Great Power comes Great Boredom."
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Ewan Corinsson
Old Wyrm
Old Wyrm


Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 455
Location: many places

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to ask for a clarification here to help me understand the debate, as from what I have read I think there are two point of views on one definition, but I could be wrong:

Is the concern about something posted or not posted that the characters would rightly notice?
Theoretically, if Ewan were to be facing an opponent, he would from experience be able to tell if someone had the look of a certain profession (a fighter it would be revealed in the way they held their weapon, callouses, etc). Should a character be in one point presented as one thing and then later revealed to be else that would not have the same visual ques (i.e. a gardner later labeled as a super weapons master is going to have a different build, look, and way of holding things).

Or is the concern what actually about keeping private things private, allowing for depth of character and depth of storyline by not revealing everything up front?
A crusader is accused of robbing a cathedral, but little do those know who come to his aid or his downfall know that he was sacrificing his freedom and his life to protect an ancient chalice from another thief?

Maybe I've missed the boat and you all already know which of these your discussing, but I'm getting confused. (not unusual. I play a clever character, I'm not one.)
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Wolvinator
Old Wyrm
Old Wyrm


Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 450
Location: 1407 Grayskull Lane, New Haven District, Rhy'Din City

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kairee wrote:
You can't pick and choose what is important to divulge and what's not important to divulge.

Bonbons or weapons......the point is that you cannot know what another character has in terms of abilities or inventory or history.


I think you're missing the point. It really isn't about Bonbons or weapons, it's about what's feasible. We aren't talking about hidden weapons or items that the character carries on their person, we're talking about pulling wild, out of context, things out of nowhere.

If you do something like I mentioned much earlier, about the Wizard Elf, it's not going to be "socially accepted" by fellow roleplayers. The weapon was an example of how someone makes up an article or weapon to allow themselves to win over their opponent. It becomes a cat and mouse game of "Who has the bigger imaginary gun."

Some people say "I don't care if my character isn't socially accepted." So then why bother playing with others at all, if you don't want to play with them. It's not a popularity game, socially accepted means that people will acknowledge that your character exists and has a purpose. Otherwise people just start throwing you on ignore.

There isn't a point in playing if you can just do whatever you want. Things have to make sense to the role that you are playing, otherwise people will not play with you. I myself have chosen to avoid characters, even recently, that just do whatever they want. They become untouchable, non bending, and not allowing it for fair gameplay.

You need to give your character a boundary, things they cannot do, things they can do. Otherwise you end up with just a Character that can be whatever they want, whenever they see fit.

Today I'm a Jedi. Tomorrow I'm a marine. The day after I'll be an Alien Superhuman. Oh... and yesterday I was an android.

Things have to be feasible.
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Wolvinator
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Wyheree
Old Wyrm
Old Wyrm


Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 536
Location: The Annex, or her Manor

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has gone off the original topic of what Playables are, and are not. If the subject of how powerful characters should be presented in a free-form setting warrants further discussion, then please make a new topic.
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Wolvinator
Old Wyrm
Old Wyrm


Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 450
Location: 1407 Grayskull Lane, New Haven District, Rhy'Din City

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wyheree wrote:
This has gone off the original topic of what Playables are, and are not. If the subject of how powerful characters should be presented in a free-form setting warrants further discussion, then please make a new topic.


Wyheree, you're right actually. So... I apologize if I jumped off topic and kept going with it. Thanks for pointing that out.

Smile
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Wolvinator
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Pyriathin
Young Wyrm
Young Wyrm


Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 18
Location: The Tower of Mysteries at the Brotherhood Fortress, Rhy'Din

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I posted this in another thread but felt that it could be used here too.

Ya know... after the last two days of reading posts around here, I think that the following really sums up everything. (This is not targeted at ANYONE SPECIFICALLY, but at the situation we've found ourselves in. Oh.. and I'm sorry if this is kinda off topic.)

Obituary for the dearly departed Common Sense

Common Sense

Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend,
Common Sense, who has
been with us for many years. No one knows for sure
how old he was since his
birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red
tape. He will be
remembered as having cultivated such valuable
lessons as knowing when to
come in out of the rain, why the early bird gets the
worm, life isn't always
fair, and maybe it was my fault.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial
policies (don't spend more
than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies
(adults, not children are
in charge).

His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well
intentioned but
overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports
of a six-year-old boy
charged with sexual harassment for kissing a
classmate; teens suspended from
school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a
teacher fired for reprimanding
an unruly student, only worsened his condition.

Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked
teachers for doing the job
they themselves failed to do in disciplining their
unruly children. It
declined even further when schools were required to
get parental consent to
administer Aspirin, sun lotion or a sticky plaster
to a student, but could
not inform the parents when a student became
pregnant and wanted to have an
abortion.

Common Sense lost the will to live as the Ten
Commandments became
contraband; churches became businesses; and
criminals received better
treatment than their victims. Common Sense took a
beating when you couldn't
defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and
the burglar can sue you
for assault.

Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after
a woman failed to
realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot She
spilled a little in her
lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents,
Truth and Trust; his
wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and
his son, Reason. He is
survived by three stepbrothers; I Know my Rights,
Someone Else is to Blame,
and I'm a Victim.

Not many attended his funeral because so few
realized he was gone. If you
still remember him, you may pass this on. If not,
join the majority and do
nothing.

I think that just says it all.
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I am Pyriathin Arrowny, The Ancient One.
Last of a race of mythical beings
known as the Erim.
I am the Keeper of the Eternal Balance.
Speak my name and I shall hear
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SulissurnXukuth
Old Wyrm
Old Wyrm


Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 382
Location: A shadow

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pyriathin wrote:
Quote:
Obituary for the dearly departed Common Sense


The thing which I think you might be overlooking, and that which I have recently come to know and understand is that...What our idea of common sense just isn't what another's idea of common sense is.

This is the human condition.
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Dolus Gairu
Young Wyrm
Young Wyrm


Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Panther wrote:
I started on this posting in the other thread, and decided that maybe this thread is a better fit for it...

Quote:
So I understand what you're trying to say, but I think that the nature of how the playables work mean that the invitation to participate is implicit in nearly every situation, with greater degrees of that invitation depending on what kind of post it is.


Who gets to decide who implicit that invitation is?

If I posted a playable that Panther can be seen with a cast on his arm while working in/around the Inn the next few days, am I implicitly inviting someone to come up to him and heal his arm for him?


Yes, you are.

Or rather, you're not inviting them to come up and heal him, but you are inviting them to come up and attempt to heal him. This is assuming that their character is one who would offer to heal someone who was injured. Part of good roleplaying is that you don't "accomplish" an action on someone, but you do attempt an action.

If I have a character who is some form of healer, and you post a playable that your character is injured and walking around with a cast, then the next time my character sees you they are going to attempt to do something about it.

If the character is polite, they may ask first. If they're grumpy and obstinate they may simply try to heal you without your character's permission. I would personally never suggest that I succeeded in any of these attempts without your character's OOC permission, but I would certainly get involved.

In the same respect, if I had a villainous character and you posted a playable about being injured, my character might take advantage of that too. If you don't want someone getting involved in your storyline about your character being injured DON'T POST IT AS A PLAYABLE.

They are called "playables" for a reason. They aren't storyline announcements for individual characters, or at least they shouldn't be. They should be used for when you want everyone to be aware of a potential storyline, and for everyone to be able to react to the knowledge of that storyline as they see fit.

That's what makes playables so interesting, but it's also what makes them so annoying. There's a fine line that has to be walked, and it probably means there needs to be more rules concerning playables than anything else.

The way things stand now, I could apparently write a playable where I and the evil army of undead robot zombies I conjured up can kill a few hundred thousand residents of the city in one post. This is, I hope we can all agree, pretty stupid.

Basically I think there are two major guidelines to a playable.

1. It is an implicit invitation for all others who read it to be aware of that storyline and to join in on it through that knowledge. Whether that's from being upset about explosions in the marketplace, outraged at a murder that occured, or sympathetic to someone who got injured, you cannot demand that others not interact in that storyline. The nature of a playable means you invited anyone to react to it.

2. Don't accomplish, attempt. This is a good guideline for all roleplaying, but it becomes more important when you're playing with many others at once. The bigger the action, the more you have to be aware that it's not fair for you to begin and complete that action in one post/line. There is leeway here, of course, and common sense (a tricky concept, unfortunately) should be used, but for anything that could conceivably affect another character, a player must ATTEMPT to accomplish an action and then allow the other player a chance for their character to react to that action.

So yes, if you post a playable that you broke your arm, you are absolutely inviting someone to attempt to heal it.
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